RONNIE JAMES DIO Blasts Black Sabbath Ronnie James Dio has come a long way. Fronting Elf in the early 'Seventies, he ended up landing the lead vocal gig with Ritchie Blackmore and Rainbow and put his first rock monument on the map. "Man On A Silver Mountain" can be called Blackmore's trademark tune with Rainbow but there's no way that song would have made its mark without the powerful Mr. Dio laying down the guts of that song with his soul. If there is a more powerful singer in rock and roll, he's yet to surpass Ronnie James Dio. After the singer left Rainbow not much was said between Dio and Blackmore, most probably because they wanted to handle the situation professionally and also because they both wanted to pursue different musical directions. Blackmore's Rainbow has survived and Dio made friends with Black Sabbath's Tony lommi at a Los Angeles party immediately after Ozzy Osbourne left that band to pursue a solo career. Recruited straight into the hot seat, Dio had to contend with the legions of Black Sabbath supporters. What he did was by no means an easy feat. Sabbath had been one of the most solid bands in the history of rock and roll, with only two personnel changes in their first fourteen years. Dio came in for Ozzy and Vinnie Appice came in for departing drummer Bill Ward, both under remarkable handicaps. Dio had to follow a curious legend, and Appice had only two days of rehearsal with no sleep in which to learn the complete Sabbath show. There's no doubt that the band was struggling in their last days with Ozzy. Oz himself was quite disgusted with the music's lack of substance. Ronnie James Dio came in and breathed life into a sleeping dinosaur. His three albums with the band, Heaven and Hell, The Mob Rules, and Live Evil certainly rank high among the finer hours of Black Sabbath. When Sabbath was finishing The Mob Rules, Ronnie James Dio, Tony lommi and Geezer Butler were all kind enough to speak with RECORD REVIEW from a studio in London via an overseas telephone hookup. Dio was the most talkative and was very proud of his involvement with Black Sabbath and the energy the band was putting out in those days. Since then the relationships between the band members deteriorated. Butler and lommi have claimed that Dio was becoming to dictatorial; Dio claimed that they were lazy and too staid in their ways. Dio's departure from Sabbath was hardly an unexpected one. Iommi and Butler have chosen to continue as Black Sabbath, landing Ian Gillan of Deep Purple in their "Smoke On The Water" days, for vocals. Ronnie James Dio has vowed to start a new career, building a monster band from the ground up. RECORD REVIEW was invited to witness the early growth of Ronnie James Dio's new band, simply titled "Dio." Our meeting took place at Sound City studios in Van Nuys, where the band was finishing the mixing of their first album. Photographer Glen La Ferman and I were set to spend much of the evening with Ronnie, but at first Dio was busy back behind the controls in his production duties. Luckily, bassist Jimmy Bain was available as our first host. Jimmy Bain has quite a resume, including stints with Rainbow, Wild Horses (Brian Robertson's band after Thin Lizzy and before Motorhead), work on the Philip Lynott solo albums, tours, and a lot of studio sessions. He even confessed to being called in to lay down some bass lines for the Scorpions' new album. According to his discussions with Herman Rarebell, the Scorpions drummer, the band just wasn't getting what they wanted out of Francois Buchholz's bass work, so they called in Jimmy. On drums in Dio is Vinnie Appice, who in Mr. Dio's not too humble opinion is the "American John Bonham." The last link in the chain is Vivian Campbell, who ended up winning the guitar slot after some deliberations on Dio's part. Ronnie had worked with Jake E. Lee (Ozzy's lead guitar player) but had wanted a more European-sounding guitarist and was looking John Sykes before Viv was recommended to him by Jimmy Bain. As much as Jimmy Bain is quiet and unassuming. Vivian Campbell is outspoken. He is not one to be called gunshy or underconfident. Being only twenty years old and fresh from the Irish band Sweet Savage, Campbell wears his feelings on the tip of his tongue. During his days with Sweet Savage, he had toured with Thin Lizzy and had made it known that he was up for the gig when Snowy White left that band. In fact, after one gig, Snowy White came offstage between songs in an encore, and asked Campbell, "fancy a gig?" meaning, "do you want my guitar job in Lizzy?" Viv confesses that he seriously thought it over, and that if common sense hadn't taken over the boys in Lizzy may have been standing on stage mid-encore with a guitar player they had never played with before. Viv made it clear to me that he had gotten over the disappointment of missing out on the Lizzy gig. "I'm glad that it didn't work out because I'd rather be in this band anyways, and I don't like working with another guitar player." All through our conversation Vivian would let his disgruntlement slip through by making snide continents, implying that Sykes copies other players too much, yet confessing that he is very influenced by the same player as Sykes, Lizzy's Gary Moore and that "in three years time I'll be better than Gary Moore, too." Don't get the idea that Vivian Campbell is all talk and no show. He's got the chops or he wouldn't be the only guitar player for someone with as much on the line as Ronnie James Dio. Finally after our conversation with Campbell, Bain, and a hello with Vinnie Appice, the main man came out of hiding from behind the control board and sat down for a chat. At first, Ronnie seemed to be a little upset with the questions raised by another reporter in an earlier interview, until I tried to convince hint that I wanted him to have to convince hint that I wanted him to have his say more than I wanted to challenge any of his decisions. After that he warmed up and even expressed his thanks to the fans of Black Sabbath and the readers of RECORD REVIEW that had voted Sabbath the top act, and he the best vocalist for his work on The Mob Rules. Ronnie, you've got yourself one confident guitar player. He's a good player, he's going to surprise a lot of people. How does Vivian stack up against Tony Iommi? He's a totally different player. He's very notey and very wild. Tony is a very unique guitar player, a great rhythm player. He can play full chords with vibrato as opposed to taking the easy way out. As a soloist, he left a lot to be desired. Tony would speed up at the end of a solo because he didn't know how to finish it off. After working with Ritchie Blackmore, someone who really knows how to finish a solo, Tony's solos seemed a little mundane. How did you find Viv? Through Jimmy. Jimmy was on the road with Phil Lynott and Viv was on the bill with Sweet Savage. Jimmy realized his potential and when we were looking for a guitar player Jimmy recommended two players, John Sykes and Vivian Campbell. All through my earlier conversation with Viv, John Sykes was referred to as "John Sucks." That probably came from the little mind that said it (laughs). Viv was pissed that he didn't get the Lizzy gig. I think he assumed it would be his gig because he's Irish and had toured with Lizzy. He thinks Lynott has something against him. After all he's twenty years old. He'll learn someday won't he? It's wonderful to have a big ego. We'll see how he handles this situation. Out of all the people here he is the unknown quantity. I choose him because I like him and he's a great player. He has great potential as a person, which is every bit as important as being a great guitar player. There are a lot of good players out there and I turned down a couple because I didn't like them. I don't want to get too much into that. One thing I won't lay down about any longer is the Black Sabbath situation. I'll answer any questions you have. You should hear my side of the story and you can believe whatever you want. I've been asked many times, why did I leave Rainbow? I chose not to say anything at the time because Ritchie is a friend of mine. And no matter what was written in the press, I never said anything bad. However in the Sabbath situation I have read too many things that I must reply to. Ask me whatever you want and I'll tell you my version of the truth. O.K. How did the end come with you and Vinnie in Sabbath? Why did Vinnie get the odd credit on the back of the Live Evil album, where he's listed as if he's only a hired session man? If you look at Heaven and Hell you'll notice that the songwriting credits are listed in alphabetical order. It's Butler, Dio, Iommi, and Ward. On The Mob Rules after Bill left, it's Butler, Dio, and lommi. On the live album, now, it's Iommi—obviously he's the most important—Butler next, and then it's 'Ronnie Dio,' not even 'Ronnie James Dio,' which is the name that I use. It's easy to see the political references that are going on. Don't I smell bitterness? You certainly do. There was no bitterness soon after I left. 1 went my way. I'm in the studio, they're not. Their success or failure makes no difference to my success or failure. I didn't reply to Ozzy about all the things he said to me. Why should I care? He's no concern to me. Now with the live Sabbath album out and all of the snubs trying to make me look like a fool, it's time I had my say. Why did Vinnie Appice get credits after Geoff Nichols, who is an average keyboard player? My dog is a better keyboard player than Geoff Nichols. He didn't do anything, and he overdubbed everything on the live album anyways. And the monster Vinnie Appice gets that kind of credit? Come on. You're really pissed. Damn right I'm pissed. I'm pissed for Vinnie too. I'm mad about what's been said about me, but what they did to Vinnie is unforgivable. I was disappointed in the treatment they are giving good musicians. Why do you think they do that? I think they want to cover their tracks and make the press line up in their favor because they are still Black Sabbath. Why did they go back to Don Arden who was their manager? He wanted Ozzy back in that band and they wanted no part of Ozzy. So when they get into trouble who's the first person they run to? Don Arden. Who was the first person they called to replace me? Ozzy. They're still living in the late 'Sixties. I think part of their approach is the name. Black Sabbath is a great name. It's fantastic. It's an identity they refuse to surrender. They're afraid of taking a step out of the late 'Sixties, early 'Seventies. They'll want to go back to the old Black Sabbath sound, which is basically guitar and bass. Since they are the two remaining members, you'll find the vocals mixed way back and the drums are pretty well non-existent. How much did you have to do with that album? Unfortunately, after the breakup came I had nothing to do with the album. They have said they would go into the studio early in the day and that I wouldn't get there until eleven in the evening — and while they were gone I would turn up the vocals in the mix. Maybe you should get an interview with Lee Dicarlo, who was the engineer, but he would probably be afraid to tell you anything. He actually produced the album anyways, but he could attest to the fact that I was there at two o'clock in the afternoon and they would show up at eleven and stay for fifteen minutes. When you hear the new Dio album you'll hear what an album by a band sounds like. People who care about each other and play properly. You don't bury any instrument. I don't want to hang out dirty laundry but it is about time the laundry got cleaned up. It seems like Iommi and Butler will go on forever. That's because Butler has no mind of his own. Tony is the dominant force. Butler has been talking about a solo album for years, and where is it? When we were writing it was for Tony and me. Geezer kept saying he was saving stuff for his solo album and didn't pitch in. Well, where's the solo album? The one thing that always bothered me about Sabbath, and I've been interested in that band's different forms, is the length of time it took them to complete an album. You can say that again! They work too slow. There is no reason why it should take that long. A live album is a concept. It is supposed to be live and put money in your pocket. After three guitar overdubs, there isn't much money in the budget. One of my reasons for leaving that band was when you make a live album you're supposed to give to the kids what they heard that night at the concert. Not three guitar overdubs, and the entire keyboards being done over again. kib Why did you settle on the name Dio for your band? Did you think it would establish an instant identity? Yes, I did, and I chose it because I have a big ego. I could have called it The Ronnie James Dio Band, but I like the name. I think it sounds good, it's a good follow up to what my image has always been. Sabbath may claim that they made me, but I've played with a lot of great musicians and had quite a name before I even went into Sabbath. I will admit that I admire Geezer Butler as a bass player. He is a great bass player. How did you get a hold of Jimmy Bain? I just called him up. Jimmy was always my best friend in Rainbow and I like him. I lean on Jimmy a lot. I did write about seventy percent of the material and Jimmy did most of the rest. I respect what he knows and what he can do. How did you get along with Martin Birch when you were working with him? Very, very well. He is one of my best friends. We've worked together for about nine years. I think he's a great personality, and I think he's the best engineer in the world. As a producer I think he needed expertise as an engineer to be a great producer. How did you feel doing the old Sabbath songs live? Let's face it, "Iron Man" wasn't my song. "Sweet Leaf" and "Black Sabbath" weren't my songs, but I think I did them very well. I made the lyric content of the song come alive. I think that is my forte as you will. A lyric should say something. A singer should inflect and bring out the spirit of the song. I wanted Sabbath to be a band. You don't get the best out of people if you don't take their ideas. Did you feel like you were hired for Sabbath? It wasn't me who auditioned for them. I auditioned them for me. I came in as a third-owning member of Black Sabbath. I didn't really want to take the gig at first, it was Wendy [his wife] who talked me into it. She thought it would be a good career move. As it turned out it was an excellent career move. It was a band. Those ideas on Heaven and Hell and The Mob Rules were mine and Tony's. I insisted on writing the lyrics and the melodies because I prefer to sing what I have created as compared to what someone else has written. We gave credit to everyone so the royalties would be spread out. Do you feel there is a gap because Sabbath is basically an English band and you were an American singer? That had no effect at all. But let me ask you this. Why does Sabbath only play America anymore if they are such a British band? I feel if you want to be a worldwide band you should play worldwide. I wanted to ask you about a certain gig. I know exactly what you're getting at. The thing Lemmy [of Motorhead] said. He was right. We had a gig set at Wembley. Although it wasn't that great an idea to schedule one show in the middle of recording sessions we still should have played after we said we would. It never came off for a very silly reason and Lemmy had his say in the press. The band lacks integrity... they are more interested in safe chances and money. Five months after Wembley, The Mob Rules still wasn't done so it looked even sillier that we couldn't make that gig. I think the band is making a mistake by sticking itself so deep in the past. The first time I was scheduled to speak to you was the very day that Bill Ward left, right after Heaven and Hell, and I always wanted to know how Vinnie (Appice) got the gig together so fast. We needed a drummer desperately. We couldn't back out of the gigs or it would have cost us another $250,000. I figure Bill [Ward's] leaving cost the band half a million dollars. Wendy suggested that we call Vinnie. He was done with Axis at the time and he already was a Sabbath fan and he was familiar with a lot of the songs. We brought him down to S.I.R. rehearsal studios and started in emergency rehearsals. It was too much for Tony and Geezer to help out, since they are the guitar player and the bass player, so they carried on in the other room, drinking Guinness. I got a tape rolling and stayed with Vinnie through all of the songs; taught him the whole set. And he survived. Of course he survived. That raises another question. Why isn't Vinnie still in the band? That's because he's with me and he's treated with respect for what he is, a great person and a fantastic drummer. Anyone who could do what he did in three days has to be incredible. I don't want this to sound like a British and American split because it isn't. Or else why would I have Jimmy who's Scotch, and Viv, who's Irish, in the band? It was always curious how Sabbath kept to itself so much, never playing with other people. Almost everyone will do the odd gig or rehearsal with other musicians just for fun. They don't play with other musicians and I think it has stunted theirgrowth. If you listen to all of the Sabbath albums you will see they got progressively worse until Heaven and Hell. Tony has to be the be-all of the band. That's okay, it's his band. I wasn't wanting to be the dominant member of the band. I wanted to be a member of Black Sabbath. It wasn't "Ronnie Dio and Black Sabbath." Even Ozzy said the band should not continue with the name Black Sabbath. That's easy for Ozzy to say. He never wrote a song in that band. Geezer wrote all of the lyrics. Ozzy is a moron. He has no musical content, no musical creativity. How can he possibly say anything about musicians, especially one that took the chance to grow. Did he ever make Sabbath grow? Maybe they stayed together too long and didn't play enough with other people. I don't think that's it. Look at Led Zeppelin. They only played with each other, and for many years at that. They continued to grow. I feel it's possible to create great music with the same people if you get along well together and continually try to grow and improve. It usually stops (the growth) because of personalities. All you have to do is be reflective in what you do. The other side of the coin is chopping and changing. I was in that situation with Rainbow. That doesn't work well either. I think the better concept is to pick fine musicians that understand each other and want to grow together. That's what I have now with Jimmy, Viv and Vinnie. When I first started with Ritchie in Rainbow we shared the controls, then he wanted more control. I let him have it, it was his band. If he wants to be Foreigner II that's his prerogative. I think if he wasn't so insistent on certain things it may have tasted longer. The truth of the matter is that Tony got all of the guys together and said "this guy (Ronnie) is taking too much control, we have to get him out of here." What he couldn't admit was that I had more conviction than he did. Now they are going to carry on by going back to being the same Sabbath. I have this nightmare that the old rock bands will eventually end up in Las Vegas being parodies of what they once were. Heavy metal is so young yet that no casualties have cropped up, but I'm convinced that it will just be a matter of time. (Laughs) I think they're heading that way now. I don't mean that to be cruel. But they wanted to carry on that way without me and that's what's happening. I'd be a dreamer to think that this conversation would survive with the hatchet completely buried. I had asked for a copy of the live album and along with it they sent me a picture of the band from the Mob Rules days and a picture of you and Vinnie ripped out. I thought you should see it. (Laughs) I'm caught in a peculiar situation here. I am still with the same record label and everyone has to work together. People have had a lot of fun with the breakup. I've seen headlines like 'Life After Dio,' 'Sabbath A.D.'. It is time to carry on. We have dates in Europe to do and America to cover after the album is out. Typical of any metal band...go straight to England and leave the lifers here waiting in exile. I didn't mean to attack your sense of humor although you are right (laughs). We have a lot of friends we want to play to... I know this is really off the wall but I had heard that once Eddie Jobson had auditioned at one time for Rainbow. Is that really true? Yes he did. He came out with his keyboards set up and had his violin on top of his synthesizer. He kept looking at it and wanted to grab it. Ritchie was playing and Eddie grabbed the violin without warning and just started screaming. He was fantastic. Ritchie put his guitar down and just said "get him out of here." I think he was a bit blown away. OK it's time to put the wraps on this debate and force Mr. Ronnie James Dio to confess the significance of the Dio band and album. It's a different album for the times. I've tried to vary the album and not get stuck in anything. I have come from Rainbw and Sabbath. This is the logical extension of my career without focusing all of the attention on the vocals. I want this to be a band, an important band. The sounds are right. I paid more attention to the drums than anything else. It should be that way as good as Vinnie is. I don't know if anybody is better. I'm the singer. I try as hard as I can to do it right, make it sound right but I want to make this a band I always want to be in. I think Vinnie, Jimmy, and Viv is a damn good combination. © Jon Sutherland, Record Review - August 1983